|
Post by christopher on Oct 1, 2010 12:27:13 GMT -8
I may be a figment of my own imagination ;D Wait a minute, how would that work? Have you ever seen A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe? Based on a true story, this genius dude imagined all sorts of various characters in his life and he really thought they were real. If I remember right, he even imagined himself a secret job helping the government. Scary weird I'm telling ya.
|
|
|
Post by robin on Oct 1, 2010 12:56:05 GMT -8
I did see that movie. Fortunately I'm not smart enough to be that crazy.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Oct 2, 2010 9:59:33 GMT -8
It's different for the individual. Most people don't gain or lose faith in a split second. It's a gradual process, wouldn't you agree?
You didn't "lose your faith" because of proof. You lost it because of a gradual process of evidences wearing away your faith, right?
Your threshold might have been higher or lower than anothers; we all have a different threshold.
Personally, I think there is never "proof" either way.
|
|
|
Post by moritz on Oct 6, 2010 2:20:44 GMT -8
My answer was definitely tongue in cheek. It's partly because I think the question is moot. In logical terms, it would be similar to trying to prove a negative or denying the antecedent. The truth is, I have no idea what would convince me that there is no God because all the data is not summed up in facts and logic. I have a relationship with some being that I know as God*. It would be like asking "what would convince me that my mother is not my mother". Well, you could produce all kinds of documentation and witnesses saying she wasn't. But I still have a 42 year relationship with this woman so my first thought wouldn't be "I guess mothers don't exist" it would be more like "then who are you?". Likewise, if God himself revealed to me that Jesus was an impostor or that all the historical evidence is just a bunch of hooey, then I'd be left wondering who it is that I'm worshiping. Do you see what I mean? * I'll won't deny that this relationship technically could be all in my head, as could any of my relationships. But since I'm strongly convinced otherwise, let's just say it's real for the sake of this discussion. Yes, I see what you mean. I liked your post. And just to get things straight, I know the question is moot but I wasn’t asking for ultimate proof (which I believe cannot exist) but for subjective proof. If you say you don’t know how such evidence could look like, that’s an answer as well. All I would add, for the sake of an argument, is that the big difference between your mother and God is that your mother is perceivable (in theory) by all humans. If I, as a slightly atheistic agnostic came to your home, I could see her and shake hands with her and conclude that she is real* (whether she’s your real mother or not), while your god is a being you (and others) claim to be able to perceive while I haven’t been able so far. That’s why I would reply that if you were “made to know” that Christianity isn’t real, the question of who you were having a relationship with all these years might as well reasonably be answered with “an imaginary friend”. * Notwithstanding that you all could be products of my imagination as well I may be a figment of my own imagination ;D Cogito ergo sum - I think, therefore I amDescartes The question is only… who are you? That’s where imagination comes into play. I did see that movie. Fortunately I'm not smart enough to be that crazy. Unfortunately schizophrenia isn’t confined to geniuses. It's different for the individual. Most people don't gain or lose faith in a split second. It's a gradual process, wouldn't you agree? You didn't "lose your faith" because of proof. You lost it because of a gradual process of evidences wearing away your faith, right? Your threshold might have been higher or lower than anothers; we all have a different threshold. Personally, I think there is never "proof" either way. Again, I was asking for subjectively perceived proof. If they find an ancient tomb near Jerusalem with the mummy of a crucified man and documents saying “here lies our Lord Jesus Christ, whom we brought here to shelter him from Roman grave robbers”, signed by some disciple, that might still be a fake but to some people this might seem heavy enough to quit. In my case giving up my faith didn’t take too long. One particular awareness fell heavy on my head and put everything else into question from one moment to the other. The building collapsed rather quickly. What took me a while was to accept it. So, to sum it up, none of you has a concrete idea of what it would take for you to change your mind. Does this allow any inference concerning the honesty of the truthseeker claim?
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Oct 11, 2010 18:19:23 GMT -8
Are you saying that you had a concrete idea of what it would take before you lost faith?
Of course it relates. There's a quote from C.S. Lewis on this I'd like to find. Be back later...
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Oct 11, 2010 19:49:27 GMT -8
OK, here's the quote that came to mind:
"Now that I am a Christian I do have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable. But when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable. This rebellion of your moods against your real self is going to come anyway. That is why Faith is such a necessary virtue: unless you teach your moods where they get off, you can never be either a sound Christian or even a sound atheist, but just a creature dithering to and fro, with its beliefs really dependent on the weather and the state of its digestion. Consequently one must train the habit of Faith."
CS Lewis
How this ties in is that an honest truthseeker doesn't have to be constantly shifting their position moment by moment just because a certain detail crops up against their position. An honest truthseeker is patient and hopefully forms opinions slowly and is willing to change opinions responsibly, not hastily.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Oct 11, 2010 20:17:55 GMT -8
Oops, I forgot this was here. Thanks Josh. Moritz wrote: I understand what you're saying, and it is logical way to reason. But I would have to say that in my mind, it really only tells me that some people trust certain kinds of perceptual senses more than other kinds. True, most of us have the typical five senses that are generally trustworthy. But not everyone. Some people (like Helen Keller) have to take it on faith that there are such beautiful things like sunsets and symphonies merely by the testimony of others because they can never perceive those things on their own. But there is also that "sixth" sense, the spiritual sense that many of us find equally as trustworthy as the physical senses now that we've encountered it. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 1 John 4:13 NKJV
It's not something that's there to prove anything to anyone. Nor can it. But rather it spills out as a testimony and an invitation: Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!
Ps 34:8 NKJV (Notice the sensory language there? ) I suspect that it's very probable that most atheists have experienced at least a hint of this spiritual sense at some point in their lives. Maybe while gazing at the stars, the birth of their first child, a near death experience, or getting the BEJESUS scared out of them diving with sharks in Australia. So, I guess my point is that for a Spirit filled believer, the "perceiving" is just as real as the physical senses (maybe more so in some cases). It would be very hard for me to ever believe that it's just my "imagination".
|
|