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Post by Josh on Feb 28, 2010 21:43:58 GMT -8
Post your comments, questions, and discussion starters on Mark 8-9:13 as replies here.
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Post by Josh on Mar 3, 2010 20:01:05 GMT -8
Why do you suppose the disciples were so unable to expect that Jesus would/could feed the 4,000 in Mark 8 when He had already fed the 5, 000 in Mark 6?
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Post by carebear on Mar 6, 2010 15:32:08 GMT -8
why do you suppose?
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Post by michelle on Mar 7, 2010 19:03:17 GMT -8
A while ago I was having a really rough time processing some pictures I had seen of some people living in a dump in Swaziland. There was a picture of a young girl who was sucking the rotten banana off her fingers. All I kept thinking was, how can God let these people go so hungry and be so desperate as to eat rotten food out of a dump? Trying to console my emotions, I thought it best to turn to the Bible and read about Jesus' miracles. I opened up to Mark 8 and read about Jesus feeding the 4,000. Instead of feeling consoled, I felt even more frustrated. I journaled furiously for a couple of pages about how it didn't make sense to me how these people could be so desperate and somehow I knew that I had to be missing something. But I didn't see how there could be miracles like that, that have happened and there still be people who are starving. It just didn't (well, it still doesn't) make sense. At the end of my journal entry I wrote (and this is some brutal honesty from the core of my heart) "God, I DOUBT YOU." I truly doubted his ability to perform a miracle like feeding 4,000 w/ 7 loaves of bread and wondering why He doesn't do it now. Why can't He show us some miracle like that today?
After my long stretch of journaling I decided to keep on reading in Mark 8. I immediately encountered the Pharisees demanding that Jesus perform a miracle and Jesus rebuking them. OUCH...total conviction!
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Post by Josh on Mar 7, 2010 20:14:08 GMT -8
Great questions and genuine reactions to the passage, Michelle. Thoughts like that bother me as well, but Jesus' words about signs speak to my own struggles of faith.
Perhaps I'll post a recap of my teaching points from today:
1) The disciples, especially Peter, experienced many high points and many low points in their faith journey
2) In these passages Jesus rebukes the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod, which I believe is "demanding a sign" and/ or demanding that God work according to our own formulas. The disciples are also rebuked in their own way for the same thing.
3) God heals the blind man in stages, I think, to show his disciples that He will heal their own spiritual blindness in stages.
4) God orchestrates trials and epiphanies in our lives in order to draw us closer to him and into spiritual maturity (defined as becoming more like Jesus). God desires our friendship and delights in revealing himself and His purposes to us.
5) Spiritual maturity is something that Peter did obtain, through the work of the Holy Spirit. We can expect that God will mature us as well if we "take up our cross and follow him".
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Post by Josh on Mar 7, 2010 20:19:21 GMT -8
Mark 9:
9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.
I love how the disciples usually mistake Jesus by literalizing his words, but in this case they appear to be missing his point by metaphorizing. Poor guys, they just can't get it right!
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Post by michelle on Mar 7, 2010 20:59:28 GMT -8
Poor guys, they just can't get it right! I'm so glad that couldn't. It helps me feel less inadequate when I don't "get it".  |
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2010 22:26:15 GMT -8
And sometimes they were within minutes of each other, like when Peter walked on water. It's always good to remember when we think we're in a season of "high faith", it can be turned around in an instant.
My understanding is the leaven of the pharisees is their hypocrisy (Luke 12:1) and their doctrine (Matt 16:12).
Not that I disagree, but I think there may be more to it than that. Using our imagination again to imagine Jesus retelling Israel's story, we could be seeing a parabolic enactment of how God's plan for restoring Israel was unveiled a little at a time.
Amen. And I believe Peter would also be the first to say that there is no shortcut and it isn't without disappointments and, at times, self-loathing.
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2010 22:41:33 GMT -8
Hi Michelle, you wrote: I know how you feel, but I would like to point out that He does indeed do that today....through us....the church. The church carries on the work of Jesus in even greater measure than Jesus Himself did, just as He said we would: John 14:12
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
NKJV It's important to remember that even when Jesus walked the earth, He did not feed everyone, nor heal everyone, nor save everyone from dying. Likewise, although the church throughout the ages has fed millions of people, healed millions of people, and even saved millions from death, the sad reality is that we can't reach everyone. But Jesus is still right there, doing the work of the Father, through His body, the church. And sometimes, He's even sacrificing all and moving to Swaziland to feed the 4000 Him(or her)self  |
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2010 22:55:30 GMT -8
Mark 8:15-21
15 Then He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod." 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "It is because we have no bread." 17 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened? 18 Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?" They said to Him, "Twelve." 20 "And when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of fragments did you take up?" And they said, "Seven." 21 So He said to them, "How is it you do not understand?"
NKJV
I can't help but thinking that the number of leftover baskets in both these instances is not accidental. Both the number 12 and the number 7 are highly significant throughout scripture (especially in prophetic passages). 12 seems to be a number that represents the totality of the people of God, and 7 is the number of perfection or completion. I wonder if there isn't a link here somehow. Is it not significant that the 12 served the people, completely, and there was abundance even after the needs of the people were met? Is God not saying that He has equipped the church to meet every need if we only act in faith against our own perception that there's not enough? And finally, does this not contradict what I just told Michelle? 
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Post by Josh on Mar 8, 2010 13:30:51 GMT -8
In all three of the synoptics gospels this warning about the leaven of the Pharisees comes after their demands of a sign (at least that can be implied in Luke). The Pharisees demand that God operate on their own terms and produce signs at will stemmed from their one-sided expectations of the Messiah (their teaching) and is related to their hypocrisy in this way: Jesus did not refuse to provide signs in general- in fact John says that the feeding of the 4,000 was indeed a sign. But Jesus' signs were always related to acts of love and compassion, not magic tricks to impress. The Pharisees represented themselves as the leaders and guides of the poor and simple, but were hypocritical in that their demands for a sign had nothing to do with helping anyone.
I think that the disciples were falling into the trap of looking for miracles for miracles sake (and by what formula God would bring them about) in their focus on how much bread they had, rather than merely trusting Jesus that if a new need presented itself He would provide. In so doing they were demonstrating their capacity for spiritual blindness and heart-heartedness; thus the rebuke and also the relatedness of the following miracle (healing the blind man).
I don't disagree that the miracle of the blind man was a statement about Israel as a whole, but it seems clear to me from the previous story, which insinuates spiritual blindness in the disciples (8:18) that Jesus was first and formost showing his disciples something.
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Post by michelle on Mar 8, 2010 18:34:15 GMT -8
I know how you feel, but I would like to point out that He does indeed do that today....through us....the church. The church carries on the work of Jesus in even greater measure than Jesus Himself did, just as He said we would: John 14:12
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
NKJV It's important to remember that even when Jesus walked the earth, He did not feed everyone, nor heal everyone, nor save everyone from dying. Likewise, although the church throughout the ages has fed millions of people, healed millions of people, and even saved millions from death, the sad reality is that we can't reach everyone. But Jesus is still right there, doing the work of the Father, through His body, the church. And sometimes, He's even sacrificing all and moving to Swaziland to feed the 4000 Him(or her)self Chris, I appreciate your perspective and the shout out! I know with my head that not everyone can be saved from famine, illness and suffering. But that, of course, is not much consolation to my heart. I'm thankful that it makes my heart ache. My heart is a lot of what fuels me. And sometimes my heart just has to cry out in frustration and agony regardless of what I know to be true. It's what keeps me sane. I fail to see how the church going out and serving is the equivalent to the miracle turning 5 loaves of bread into enough to feed 4,000. I think that now the responsibility is on Christ's followers to feed those 4,000, but it is quite a bit different of a process than just taking 5 loaves to a field and it being enough for everyone and then some. I can't help but thinking that the number of leftover baskets in both these instances is not accidental. Both the number 12 and the number 7 are highly significant throughout scripture (especially in prophetic passages). 12 seems to be a number that represents the totality of the people of God, and 7 is the number of perfection or completion. I wonder if there isn't a link here somehow. I had the same thought when Josh was teaching on Sunday. Is it not significant that the 12 served the people, completely, and there was abundance even after the needs of the people were met? Is God not saying that He has equipped the church to meet every need if we only act in faith against our own perception that there's not enough? I like this thought. I think the result of that thought, if it is true, is that the Church is not moving enough because there is still so much need. Also, if it's true then that means we are failing Jesus MISERABLY. If that's true, we have got to get people moving!!! And finally, does this not contradict what I just told Michelle? I think it does, but I think that's cool because it shows that you are still processing it and you are not stagnate in your thinking. |
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