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Post by Josh on Jun 15, 2008 19:40:32 GMT -8
Robin, I'm curious- what is the significance of this distinction in your mind?
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Post by robin on Jun 16, 2008 9:36:19 GMT -8
Well first I would like to say that my current understanding of the passage is that Jesus is speaking of his second coming at the end of this current age. So my point is simply this. I don't think that Christians are represented by the sheep, but what we see is those who are not Christians being separated based on how they responded to the light they were given. I think we (Christians) are standing with Christ in Judgment of the world. When I read the parable of the sheep and the goats, I think about what Jesus said in Mark 9, and 10:
Mark 10:40-42 40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward."
Mark 9:41-50 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. 42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
Overall, my thoughts on the passage are not entirely settled. When Marcus said "we are on one side or the other" I only wanted to point out that he may not be correct, and from the reading of the passage one could get the idea that Christians don't fall into either category. Though it could be that some who call themselves Christians are actually goats.
What about you? Do you think Christians are among the sheep?
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Post by Josh on Jun 16, 2008 19:39:14 GMT -8
Robin, Quite interesting. I guess I've always seen the sheep and the brethren as one and the same. However, I think there could be some merit to your way of seeing the passage.
After all, he doesn't tell the disciples that they personally will be gathered for this separation. Instead, he stresses that it will be the nations of the earth.
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Post by robin on Jun 16, 2008 20:35:57 GMT -8
OK, just a quick thought on this before I head to bed.
I think it is unlikely that the brethren and the sheep are one. The passage reads as follows:
Matthew 25:31-40 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy F140 angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
1. Jesus tells the sheep that "'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me'". It appears that Jesus, when addressing the sheep speaks of his brethren as a separate group. If it we the same you would expect him to say something along the lines of 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these among you, you did it to Me'. But he did not.
2. I would expect that as Christians we would need not ask the question "'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'". As Christians this should be a central theme of our faith (caring for the poor, hungry and so on and doing so in the name of Christ).
Robin
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Post by Josh on Jun 16, 2008 20:53:09 GMT -8
You make a good case. Your interpretation really makes more sense of those passages in Mark. Here another that I think is somewhat relevant and might fit nicely with what you're saying here. There's this passage in Romans which I've always though held out some hope for those who may have received "lesser light"- i.e. who, haven't received the fullness of the gospel but have responded to what promptings they have received from the Holy Spirit: Romans 2: 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.One follow-up question, though. This passage is often used to show that Jesus can be present in the sick, the poor, the prisoner-- even if they themselves are not followers of Christ. This is an idea that I have found helpful and inspiring in that it reminds us that our labors are never in vain, even when we don't get a good response because we are rendering our work to Christ, not to men. It seems your interpretation might weaken this notion. Still, there are plenty of other passages I think that one could still base the above sentiments on. Good stuff. This might deserve it's own thread when the new update comes and I can split them.
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Post by robin on Jun 17, 2008 9:17:43 GMT -8
Yes, it is very inspiring. It just goes to show that we serve a God who truly is just, and loving. It is so important that we strive to imitate Jesus, and in doing so, God will justly reward us for our efforts.
Robin
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