|
Post by Josh on Sept 29, 2009 21:55:40 GMT -8
well, if it's not talking about a christian brother (which in this context I'm pretty convinced it is), then we're back to the problem again of John seeming to say that God will always answer our prayers for the salvation of the unbeliever who is still alive.
I might add that, Mueller notwithstanding, people I have prayed for in faith, to receive salvation have died without repenting (as far as I'm aware).
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Sept 30, 2009 8:46:24 GMT -8
..and isn't that the rub? We are not always aware of a repentent soul.
I remember my feelings changing from near panic to an overwhelming sense of peace when my unsaved Grandmother was dying, as if God was telling my heart "Don't worry, I care more about this than you do....I got her". I don't know for sure if my Grandmother truly called out to God in the last days of her life or not (even though she told me something along those lines), but I have a strong sense that she did.
If God is not willing that any should perish (2Pet 3), I think it's safe to say that our prayers are effectual in prompting God to at least do everything He can to save a soul. Why would He say no to that?
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Sept 30, 2009 18:40:48 GMT -8
I have had a similar experience, so I know what you're talking about.
Agreed. But that's still not a guarantee that the person will be saved, and isn't that what we're debating?
Sorry to get so off track, grokit. Hope you don't mind. Hey, at least you're in the running for longest thread!
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Oct 1, 2009 9:05:18 GMT -8
Actually, I thought we were debating the context of the absolute sounding statement John is making about our prayers. I say he's making it in reference to salvation of those we know, and you and Alex seem to lean towards a general statement of any petition. Either way, there is a dilemma here because neither is practically true.
Yes, there is no guarantee that praying for someone's salvation will save them (after all, there are two wills at work here..God's and the individual), but neither can we say that all supplications will be affirmatively granted.
However, I would say that if our prayer is to turn up the pressure on someone for them to repent, there's no reason I can think of that God wouldn't answer that prayer in the lifetime of the individual. But I don't think we can legitimately ask God to violate His own nature by overriding someone's free will to deny Him.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Oct 1, 2009 14:24:46 GMT -8
Agreed.
Don't you think that even if the specific context of the immediate passage was salvation, the fact that John says "anything we ask" and "-whatever we ask-" broadens the context of that particular set of verses to requests in general?
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Oct 1, 2009 19:29:25 GMT -8
Well it would seem so in our manner of speaking. However, since I don’t think John had that in mind when he penned the words, I won’t hold him to it. We think,speak, and write much more literally than that culture did. For example, here's another "whatever" statement from Paul: Eph 6:5-9 5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. NKJV Am I to expect that if I give $10,000 to a charity, I can expect exactly $10,000 back from God? I don't think that is what is meant here (in fact I'm sure of it). It's just a manner of speaking. In any case, again, we know it’s not practically true and that we can easily prove. Besides, the statement back in the 1John passage is also qualified with “according to His will”. What is the “will of God”? To be our on-call genie? I doubt it. His will is that His Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven (Matt 6), that we be sanctified (1Thes 4, Rom 12) and thankful (1Thes 5), and do good to others (1Pet 2, Eph 6). Part of His kingdom coming on earth has to do with the salvation of the lost.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Oct 1, 2009 19:36:02 GMT -8
Well, my stance on this whole topic is that the "according to His will" is a qualifier for which kind of prayers get answered (though grokit challenges this assumption) This is kinda like a three way debate I guess
|
|
grokit
Intermediate Member
Posts: 50
|
Post by grokit on Oct 3, 2009 10:08:13 GMT -8
Sorry for not posting for so long. I'm still here just been busy. I have a pretty long reply I'm working on. Maybe I'll get it posted this weekend.
|
|
grokit
Intermediate Member
Posts: 50
|
Post by grokit on Oct 16, 2009 22:32:23 GMT -8
I see that there are some arguments for why Mark 11:24, and other verses like it, might not be the whole “black and white” truth. But, considering the preponderance of verses that state the argument so clearly, and, how few verses seem to contradict it; I am absolutely sure that God wants to give us what we ask for much more often than we allow him to. As Jesus said “You of little faith...” (Matthew 8:26) and then calmed a storm; with the implication being that his disciples could have done the same.
Now, assuming my starting premise is at all correct, and faithful prayers are answered; it begs the question, why are are we not seeing more results? Even if my faith is insignificant, are there not people with strong faith in the world praying? Where are the miracles? Where's my Porsche? And why don't my kids sleep!? I think the word faith may be muddying the argument.
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. - Mark 11:24 (NIV)
This verse says it all. I may have loads of 'faith' in God, knowing that he's here, he loves us, has dominion over heaven and earth, will fulfill his promises, and yada yada. But do I honestly believe he will do things for -me- as an individual? Sometimes I do. And the few times I have truly believed, I have seen the results I asked for.
There are also many times my prayers haven't been answered. And when I look at where my faith was placed in those instances, I find that -I- was the one who was to blame for my lack of results, not God.
Unwaivering belief is a very big challenge. Look at Jesus' disciples in Matt 8:25-26; these men were seeing miracles all the time and had “little faith.” And the story of the Israelites coming into the promised land and how they often had wavering faith even with miracles right in front of them on a daily basis. These stories make me think we are doing pretty good to come up with any faith (or belief) at all.
What I'm hoping readers of this will get is that God isn't going around blessing some and cursing others in some unfathomable plan. Just as accepting Christ as our savior is our choice, so is continual lack and/or suffering in this life. God has made it very clear he wants my “cup to overflow” (Psalms 23:5). So, if it's not overflowing it must be my doing or God isn't the God we read about in the Bible.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Oct 17, 2009 11:49:30 GMT -8
A few concerns with this:
Wouldn't this imply that if we have a Christian brother who is, let's say, dying of cancer but praying in faith that he will be healed, that the fault for his failure to be healed lies with him?
Wouldn't this imply that someone like Joni Erickson Tada, paralyzed for years, but who has claimed to have the faith that God can and will heal her, is herself at fault for her lack of recovery?
Also, is it really true that God always desires that our "cup overflow" with material benefit and physical healing?
What about Paul, of whom Jesus expressly said, "I will show you how much you will suffer for my name"?
What of the prophets, of whom the authors of Hebrews said:
They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground (Heb. 11:37-38).
Or of Lazarus in Jesus' parable who was poor in this life but blessed?
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Oct 18, 2009 22:10:03 GMT -8
I agree with Josh on this one. As stated before, I'll grant that there are indeed some very strong sounding verses that support the idea that God will grant whatever we ask for in faith. But they need to be balanced with the other verses and, more importantly, circumstances (both biblically and extra-biblically) that I think prove that's not the case. One only has to follow the idea out to it's logical conclusion to know that God couldn't answer all prayers said in faith. I really think that would suggest that we are able to know what's best for us better than He does. Garth Brooks said " sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers". I have to agree with him. I have a friend who's 13 year-old daughter had leukemia, the church he went to had a similar belief about prayer and were convinced that God was going to heal her because they prayed fervently in faith for it. He didn't. She died, and suffered a great deal before she actually went. My friend (and many in his church) was dumbfounded and angry at God for not answering this prayer they so faithfully prayed for months. When my friend consulted me me about it, I shared with him this verse I believe God gave me though a devotional a few days earlier just for this occasion: Isa 57:1-2 The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil. 2 He shall enter into peace; They shall rest in their beds, Each one walking in his uprightness. NKJV
I think God took this little girl as an act of mercy, because it was what was best, contrary to what others (praying with as much faith as I've ever seen) wanted. Alex wrote: Let me ask you this, have you ever had the experience of praying for something, doubting it will be answered as you hope, and then be completely shocked when God does it? I have, many times, and I dare say that probably most Christians could think of a similar instance or two as well. You see, my faith is not that strong when I pray, quite honestly, it's actually quite weak, and I often doubt God will answer my prayers. But He surprises me time and again. I know it's already been said before, I think God wants to foster a father/child like relationship with us by giving us good things, things that are good for our hearts, and withholding things that are not good for our heart (unless, of course, the end result is better for our hearts, like in the case of the prodigal son). And He wants us to ask for those things, believing that He is a good Father that wants what's best for us. I believe Jesus asked, in faith, "Father, with you all things are possible, take this cup from me...." and it wasn't answered as He requested. Ironically, He was also convinced he could call 12 legions of angels down to stop His arrest that night (Matt 26:53). But He knew the cup was coming, because the scriptures had to be fulfilled that way. God has to be the final decider of answered prayers, because He is the only one who is good enough, and wise enough to handle that enormous responsibility. Me? I'm stupid and wicked and the thought of unleashing such a power that I have control over horrifies me frankly.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 3, 2009 11:45:43 GMT -8
Some interesting quotes from C.S. Lewis on this subject: "Prayer is request. The essence of request, as distinct from compulsion, is that it may or may not be granted. And if an infinitely wise Being listens to the requests of finite and foolish creatures, of course He will sometimes grant and sometimes refuse them"(I wrote a short article on this subject. Here's a link: Prayer vs. Magic) "It seems to me we must conclude that such promises (as in Mark 11:24) about prayer with faith refer to a degree or kind of faith which most believers never experience. A far inferior degree is, I hope acceptable to God. Even the kind that says "Help thou my unbelief" may make way for a miracle. Again, the absence of such faith as insures the granting of the prayer is not even necessarily a sin; for Our Lord had no such assurance when He prayed in Gethsemene""There are no doubt, passages in the New Testament which may seem at first sight to promise an invariable granting of our prayers. But that cannot be what they really mean. For in the very heart of the story we meet a glaring instance to the contrary. In Gethsemene the holiest of all petitioners prayed ... that a certain cup might pass from him. It did not. After that the idea that prayer is recommended to us as a sort of infallible gimmick may be dismissed".
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Nov 3, 2009 19:10:38 GMT -8
Sure...when he says it, it means something.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Nov 4, 2009 9:36:56 GMT -8
You know, I was just thinking last night how I should have said how much I appreciated your post. There was just too much to agree with, I was speechless. Your post was very, very good, Chris. Very, very good.
|
|
ben
Advanced Member
Posts: 115
|
Post by ben on Nov 4, 2009 16:43:50 GMT -8
How about a little flattery. This post was great. I really learn from you guys.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Mar 13, 2010 10:35:09 GMT -8
Alex,
This passage from our reading this week stood out to me in a way I'd never seen.
Mark 10: 35Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask." 36"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked. 37They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory." 38"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" 39"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."
So, it seems like here is an example of the disciples misunderstanding what Jesus said about "you have whatever you ask in my name". Jesus clearly says no and affirms that He must not mean absolutely whatever you ask, but, rather, only those things according to His will.
|
|