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Post by Nothing But the Blood on May 2, 2009 8:30:01 GMT -8
it is definately an eternal commandment under the avrahamic cov't. and in first century judaism, and even now, you have to get circumcised before officially becoming 'jewish.' shaul disagrees and (i can make this clearer by pulling scriptures from acts-- but i guess i will put that in a later post) shaul believes that you must first spiritually get circumcised by getting saved through faith. AFTER that we can get circumcised. he does not think that we should do mikvah or circumcision OR offer sacrifices until AFTER we are saved. and we do not have to be jewish to be saved either. we can be gentiles and still be part of the nation of Yisrael. circumcised, baptised and recieved a sacrifice all spiritaully, only LATER to do it through acts. shaul thinks that if a child of darkness gets circumcised before getting saved, than it means nothing. also, the three requirements for converting in judaism is baptised, circumcied and offering a sacrifice. also note (and i will pull quotes for other literature uusing the same slang shaul was) alot of times during that period, 'circumcised' means jewish and 'uncircumcised' means gentile. so when shaul says your circumcision has become uncircumcision he is reffereing to you "becoming a gentile spiritually." and when he says that kefa preaches unto the circumcision, he is reffering to the jews. while he also says he himself was called to the uncircumcision... you can guess what that means. shalom- john What about females, since females cannot be circumcised?
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on May 2, 2009 8:34:19 GMT -8
Where does Paul say that after salvation gentiles must be circumcised? And again, what about women? If all people must be circumcised in order to be considered part of Israel and belonging to Christ? And what about Galatians 5:712? 7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. and Galatians 6:12-16 12Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 1 4But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15F or neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Scriptures according to the NASB) (* Note on the NASB -- One of my friends is seeking to be a Messianic Jew -- she has a Christian background but is interested in Messianic Judaism. My friend, I, and another friend decided to go to a Messianic Jewish service last week. You know what Bible translation they used in their pews? It was the NASB So not only do theologically conservative Christians respect the NASB, but so do at least some Messianic Jews. Even theologically liberal Christian scholars respect it as a very accurate translation). NASB = New American Standard Bible These Messianic Jews that were at the service I went to seemed to have the same theology that I have as a Christian. On the spectrum of theology, they were theologically conservative Christians. I'm calling them Christian because they fit my definition of Christian. They definitely believed in the deity of Jesus -- this was reflected in the songs they sang and in the sermon that was given. They also embraced the universal church (by that I mean they considered everyone who believes in Jesus to be their brothers and sisters in Christ.) They spoke about Christians as being of the same faith as they were. There was not this false separation between Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers that I have seen in Messianic discussions on the Internet (please note that this is not directed at anyone on this particular forum. Yeshuafreak has been very polite. What I am referring to here is people who identified themselves as Messianic on other websites.) The only difference that I saw between this Messianic Jewish service and a Christian service was that they worshiped in a Jewish way. I've been to regular Jewish services for various religion classes I've taken, and they worshiped in the same way that other Jews do. They had Hebrew in some of the songs, which I could not understand. There was English translation for most of it. They also worshiped on Saturday instead of Sunday, and they celebrate the Jewish holidays. Setting all of that aside, they have the same faith that I do as a Christian. They use the Hebrew name for Jesus. No one there said anything about following the Law being a requirement for either Jewish or non-Jewish believers in Jesus. No one condemned Christians. Rather, like I said before, they fully accepted Christians as having the same faith that they did. That, in my opinion, is how it should be.
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Post by yeshuafreak on May 2, 2009 15:08:29 GMT -8
jews consider mikveh the female circumcision.
[/quote]12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselvesp[/quote]
christopher: this is for you as well. Shaul is not wrong in any of his theoology in my opinion... but this is a perfect example of when shaul sins. according to him, he should not be wishing this on another person.
NBTB: i will be investigating galatians soon.
also, we do have the same faith as you christians only in the aspect that we believe Yeshua died for our sins. Law is NOT a requirement for salvation. however, WHEN YOU RECEIVE SALVATION YOU WILL DO THE TORAH ANYWAY!!! you seem to think that i am saying it will get you into heaven--- I AM NOT. i amm saying that 'the righteous will do [God's] will" and "faith without works is dead"--- works is the evidence of your faith. you have no faith if you dont do works. works can exist apart from faith, but not faith apart from works. works will always be present in a tzaddik (righteous one).
he does not say right out that after faith get circumcised... but he makes clear that he doesnt want you getting circumcised before getting saved, and from acts 15, it is obvious that Yaakov expected the gentiles to hear more of Torah and do it. there are other scriptures which i am forced to go through later0-- i have to eat and i dont have many hours in the day to post here.
plus, this is getting tiring having to go through the same points over again.
shalom- john
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Post by yeshuafreak on May 2, 2009 17:31:26 GMT -8
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on May 3, 2009 9:44:19 GMT -8
NBTB: i will be investigating galatians soon. also, we do have the same faith as you christians only in the aspect that we believe Yeshua died for our sins. Law is NOT a requirement for salvation. however, WHEN YOU RECEIVE SALVATION YOU WILL DO THE TORAH ANYWAY!!! you seem to think that i am saying it will get you into heaven--- I AM NOT. i amm saying that 'the righteous will do [God's] will" and "faith without works is dead"--- works is the evidence of your faith. you have no faith if you dont do works. works can exist apart from faith, but not faith apart from works. works will always be present in a tzaddik (righteous one). John, please note that, as I a Christian, I agree with what you have said here. The difference occurs in our interpretation of what this means. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that if a person has real faith, they will then want to do all of the commandments. Is that accurate? Now as a Christian, I would agree, but my interpretation of what doing the commandments would differ from your interpretation. I cannot speak for all Christians, so I speak only for myself. I believe that if a person truly belongs to Christ they will seek to do the following things: love God and love other people. That is what Jesus said all of the Law and Prophets hang on. I am not concerned with the specific laws, but rather with how to love God and how to love other people. I do not sleep around with guys that I'm not married to because although I am not married yet, I know that if I did sleep around it would hurt my future husband...and also my relationship with God. I just know that it is not God's will for me to sleep with guys. I am not trying to argue that people should not follow any laws, and I don't think that anyone on this board is advocating that. Perhaps we are looking at the same thing, but from two different perspectives, but we have come to the same conclusion. The specific differences would be circumcision, food laws, what day to worship on, and what holidays to celebrate. I don't know whether the Messianics at the service I went to followed dietary laws. If they do, they did not talk about it. For them, what really matters is Christ. It is the same for us Christians. What matters is Jesus and demonstrating our love for Him by loving God and loving other people. It seems, then, that we are agreed on the fact that it is not by following laws that a person is saved. Rather, it is by grace through faith in Jesus. The good things that we do are simply a reflection of our love for God. Does this also accurately reflect the Messianic viewpoint?
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Post by yeshuafreak on May 3, 2009 16:41:48 GMT -8
yes.
this is the sum of the law. the rabbis often geave the whole Torah as one commandment. Rav Hillel (a great rabbi of Yeshua's time; yeshua may have went to his rabbinical school) said to a gentile that wanted to know the Torah to : 'love God and do good to your neighbor. this is the sum of the law, the rest is commentary- now go d it!' but hillel still tried to follow all the laws.
the WHOLE LAW needs to be followed, not just one commandment. although you must realize that if we LOVE we will fulfill ALL the laws. YHVH commanded us to worship on the shabbat, so when we worship on the shabbat, we are doing it out of love for him. YHVH told us not to murder, so when we dont murder we are doing it for YHVH's sake, and out of love for our neighbor. actually, all of the first 5 commanments of the decalogue can be fulfilled by loving YHVH, and the other 5 by loving your neighbor. the jews teach this as well.
the fact is, YHVH said to observe the feasts continually FOREVER THROUGHOUT THE GENERATIONS. he even said that the strangers in the land (ie, gentiles) were to observe the feasts. so if we love him we will do this.
Tha avrahamic cov't is an ETERNAL COV"T... and circumcision is the sign of that cov't... so if we love YHVH we will do his commands, and if we love our neighbor, we will respect avraham in his oath with YHVH.
messianic judaism is a divided religion right now. there are many schools of thought. they genrally agree that the Torah is still in effect, sometimes saying that the sacrificial system has been abrogated or that gentiles dont have to follow certain laws. so i dont know how the Messsianic synagogue taught, but i know how i teach. and i do not teach doctrines i am not sure of because teachers receive a stricter judgment (Yaakov 3:1).
the messianics mostly agree that you are saved by faith not works. some DO preach the gospel of circumcision (meaing 'yoiu have to be jewish and do the law before you can get saved') but most dont agree with this and rebuke those who do.
but again, we are to observe the law of YHVH, and YHVH is the same, so he will not change his mind about Torah. not one Yod or Crown of the Torah has been abolished, done away with, or abrogated ad Yeshua himself proclaimed would not happen until AFTER we are ressurected and enter into the 'olam haba'.
the commandment to love overrules all others, and is a good rule of thumb to go by, but as believers we are to be examples to those that are not saved, therefore it would be wise to KNOW the law and to DO it. For not the hearers but the doers will be justified- and you cannot do until you know. so do concern yourself with each INDIVFUAL commandment, but DONT become legalistic in observance. if two commandments contradict each other (supposedly) than either look to the rabbis (of the NT) or pray. for example, circumcision is to be done on the eighth day of birth, but that means that it may fall on the shabbat. therefore, YHVH gave a ruling through the rabbis (which Yeshua approved of) that circumcision was to override that. Yeshua taught through the 'good samaritan story' that the law to love overcomes all. so at the BARE minimum concern yourself with observing this, for this is the whole of the law, but as believers we should know our stuff and know the individual commandments that are under that supreme commandment.
shalom- john
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Post by christopher on May 3, 2009 18:25:26 GMT -8
John,
You've referenced the covenants being "forever" a number of times. Do you think "forever" is ever used merely as hyperbole in the OT? If so, what would prevent that from being the case in the places you've listed?
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on May 4, 2009 6:27:00 GMT -8
I look at it this way -- living by the standard of love is living by a higher standard than living by the letter of the Law. When people are concerned with living by the letter of the Law, they ask questions about whether or not something is legal or permissible rather than asking whether or not it is the most loving thing to do, or whether it is in another person's best interest. So if you are acting out of love, you're not going to steal from someone else, you're not going to murder someone....etc. You're still living in accordance with the Law, but you're not bound up trying to follow the letter of it. As for what day a person worships -- isn't what is really important in the Sabbath law the fact that you are worshiping God? Or is the exact day that you worship more important? In my opinion, it is the fact that people gather together to worship God that is the most important thing. Paul wrote this in Colossians, and I consider this to be Scripture (inspired by the Holy Spirit): Colossians 2 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
If Christ is what really matters, and if we are worshiping God and showing our love for Him, then does the exact day that we gather together to worship REALLY matter? You mentioned that those who worship on Saturday are doing so out of love for God. But don't you think that those who worship on Sunday are also setting time aside for worship of God, out of love for Him as well? And that also applies to whatever day someone decides to worship God on. Paul also wrote this in Galatians 5: 13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And Scripture says not to judge another believer on the basis of what day they worship or what festivals they keep because reality is found in Christ. (The NIV says "reality is found in Christ.") Because of this, something must have happened that no longer makes it a requirement to keep the feasts. I have to admit, though, that I really do think that the feasts are neat, and I wish that we as Christians did celebrate them. But we don't know how to celebrate them. I think many Christians are interested in this. There are quite a few Christians who do hold a Passover meal at their churches. From reading Galatians, it seems to me that what he's responding to has a lot to do with people who, after they have already been saved, are attempting to be justified by following the Law. Although what he said goes against those who claim that a person must become Jewish before they can be a believer in Jesus, I think what he was faced with was people who, after they had already were saved, were attempting to be justified by the Law. I say this because Paul says this Galatians 3 1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Galatians 5:25 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. When a person becomes more concerned with the letter of the law rather than the intent of the law, then there is great danger in falling into the trap of legalism.
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Post by christopher on May 4, 2009 8:01:45 GMT -8
NBTB, great response. I think you nailed the heart of the matter. Couldn't have said better myself.
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Post by Josh on May 4, 2009 11:27:15 GMT -8
Yes, agreed. You have made a great case.
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on May 4, 2009 11:33:12 GMT -8
NBTB, great response. I think you nailed the heart of the matter. Couldn't have said better myself.
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Post by yeshuafreak on May 4, 2009 11:37:39 GMT -8
the fact is that the jews say that a commandment without 'lishmah' as the 'havvanah' is a Torah not of love. but a Torah of love is one that is done with the 'havvanah' of 'lishmah.' now- havvanah is 'intention' in hebrew. we are always to do a mitzvot with the havvanah to lishmah lishmah is the intention of a commanment that is done 'for her sake' in other words, for Torah's sake. The rabbis say that Torah and YHVH are one- therefore lishmah is a commandment done out of the love of YHVH. so the intent of the law is very important. and as for the verses on the feasts and such-i am not judging you---but there is a reason why shaul said this, which i can only reveal when i 'write a commentary' on galatians, romans and chapters of acts. otherwise, the whole of what i am saying to you will not seep in. you are honestly misunderstanding what i am saying. but i give up. i am saying the same thing over and over agin only in different wording because i realize that you are not truly understanding what i am saying. you point to verses in the bible, so i will as well. - what about when yeshua said he didnt come to abolish the law but to fulfill?
- what about when Shaul said 'we uphold the law'?
- what about when the OT said the feasts were to be followed forever?
- what about when Yeshua told the leper to cleanse himself according to the law of mosheh?
- what about shaul circumcising timothy AFTER he is saved?
- what about shaul offering the sacrifices for a nazarite vow?
- what about shaul cleansing himself according to the law of mosheh?
- what about Yeshua sayin not one Yod or Corwn would pass away from the law until the earth was changed?
- what about when Yeshua taught that the WHOLE LAW hung on the commandment to love YHVH and love your neighbor?
- etc etc etc ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC!!!!!!!!
so on so forth. there are many things that show the law is not abolished. shalom- john (i wont be replying here again most likely (i will prob. reply to a few thingss) until i have written a paper on the whole of my theology ... later i will coment on galatians and romans, etc.)
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Post by robin on May 4, 2009 11:48:07 GMT -8
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Post by Nothing But the Blood on May 4, 2009 14:46:14 GMT -8
the fact is that the jews say that a commandment without 'lishmah' as the 'havvanah' is a Torah not of love. but a Torah of love is one that is done with the 'havvanah' of 'lishmah.' now- havvanah is 'intention' in hebrew. we are always to do a mitzvot with the havvanah to lishmah lishmah is the intention of a commanment that is done 'for her sake' in other words, for Torah's sake. The rabbis say that Torah and YHVH are one- therefore lishmah is a commandment done out of the love of YHVH. so the intent of the law is very important. and as for the verses on the feasts and such-i am not judging you---but there is a reason why shaul said this, which i can only reveal when i 'write a commentary' on galatians, romans and chapters of acts. otherwise, the whole of what i am saying to you will not seep in. you are honestly misunderstanding what i am saying. but i give up. i am saying the same thing over and over agin only in different wording because i realize that you are not truly understanding what i am saying. you point to verses in the bible, so i will as well. - what about when yeshua said he didnt come to abolish the law but to fulfill?
- what about when Shaul said 'we uphold the law'?
- what about when the OT said the feasts were to be followed forever?
- what about when Yeshua told the leper to cleanse himself according to the law of mosheh?
- what about shaul circumcising timothy AFTER he is saved?
- what about shaul offering the sacrifices for a nazarite vow?
- what about shaul cleansing himself according to the law of mosheh?
- what about Yeshua sayin not one Yod or Corwn would pass away from the law until the earth was changed?
- what about when Yeshua taught that the WHOLE LAW hung on the commandment to love YHVH and love your neighbor?
- etc etc etc ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC!!!!!!!!
so on so forth. there are many things that show the law is not abolished. shalom- john (i wont be replying here again most likely (i will prob. reply to a few thingss) until i have written a paper on the whole of my theology ... later i will coment on galatians and romans, etc.) If I'm misunderstanding you, then you are also misunderstanding me. I am NOT advocating that Jesus got rid of the entire Law. What we have is a difference of perspective. There are some Christians that would argue this. I know this because I have discussed it with a few. Because they think that the entire Law has been abolished, they do not see any problem with living together before marriage and all that that usually entails, or doing anything. I disagree with this position. If we live by the standard of love, we are NOT getting rid of the Law. I am just viewing it from a different perspective than you are. The standard is that of love. I should also highlight a couple of lines from the verses I quoted above. I think that Paul is saying that if we live by the Spirit (rely on Him and grow in relationship with God), then we will produce the fruit of the Spirit. One of these fruits is love. Paul emphasized love in 1 Corinthians as well. If we know God and we are growing in relationship with Him, He will give us a heart to love others. When He asks us to reach out in love to someone in need, we will do it. We also will not want to hurt God or our relationship with Him, or other people, so we will want to act out of love for others. A person can't just live a life of love on their own. We are empowered by the Holy Spirit to love others. That's why I think Paul specifically talked about living by the Spirit. This is a subject that I am having a difficult time conveying. I don't know if what I mean is coming across very clearly. If we are keeping in step with the Spirit, then we are going to be living by the standard of love. There is no law against love. If you are acting out of real love (agape love -- not society's version of love), then you are going to live in such a way that does not break the Law. If we concern ourselves with God and trying to please Him because we love Him...and we simply want to glorify Him through our interactions with others, then we're going to act out of love. We're not going to steal, etc. I also don't think that Paul is saying that we shouldn't follow the Law at all. I think his issue is when people follow the Law because they think that in doing so they can either gain salvation or look better before God or when they are only concerned with following the letter of the Law. When people do this, they are no longer relying on the Holy Spirit or "keeping in step with Him." They are trying to earn their standing before God by how well they can keep the Law. My personal position is not that there is no longer a Law. Rather, I think that some of the laws have been changed in light of Jesus' death and bodily resurrection. There are laws that specifically pointed to Christ. Jesus is who the entire OT points to. Now that He has come and died and was raised, there are some things that are different. He is our perfect sacrifice. Therefore, the laws that have to do with sacrifice no longer are necessary. Jesus paid it all. Because Jesus' death and resurrection opened up salvation to everyone (both Jew and otherwise), God has removed the distinction between Jews and others. This means that Jews are not the only ones who are to be considered clean. It appears that God may have used the dietary laws as a metaphor here, and that in Christ everyone who trusts in Him is made clean. There is no longer a need for clean and unclean meats. In regard to the holidays, again, reality is found in Christ. Christ is the foundation of our faith. He is what really matters.
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Post by Josh on May 4, 2009 15:31:18 GMT -8
yeshuafreak:
Thanks for the bulleted list. That's actually very helpful, and I'd like to respond to each one as I have the time.
I think that's the best way for us to go about addressing the subject just because it's so huge and there are so many Scripture passages to address.
Perhaps I could make a counter-point list that you could respond to all together at some point.
BTW, in conversations like this, there is bound to be a lot of repitition to clarify things. After all, that's a very Hebrew thing (repetition) anyway, right?
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Post by yeshuafreak on May 5, 2009 2:35:55 GMT -8
lol--- yes. repitition is highly used in poetry etc. but i hate not so much the repeating, but more or less that in the repeating, i know i cannot fully get the point across until i do some things first- like explain my theology as a whole.
go ahead and do the list thing.
shalom- john
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Post by yeshuafreak on May 5, 2009 2:42:45 GMT -8
why then does ezekiel record sacrifices during the new jerusalem?
i agree with what i think you are saying, except you are viewing it from a wrong perpective on some things. those laws that were a shadow of Yeshua now are not done looking forward to him, rather, they are looking back and remmebering as we will do in ezekiels olam haba (world to come). and now, since Yeshua has taken away our yetzer hara and atones for all previious sins, we can 'go and sin no more' and 'be perfect as YHVH is perfect.' so with this ultimate sacrifice, we no longer neecd the previous sacrifices not because they are abolished but because we will no longer sin.
so yes we are viewing the law from a different perspective, but not the perspective you are thinking .
and i do like your interpretation- i was misunderstanding you as well- it is lesss dangerous than most.
shalom- john
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