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Post by Josh on Aug 12, 2009 10:26:00 GMT -8
I was listening to Steve Gregg's Some Assembly Required audio series and he made the comment that "vicar of Christ" (aka the Pope) actually means instead of Christ, similar to the word "anti-christ".
I think this is a bit unfair. To a Catholic, wouldn't the word "vicar" rather mean "in the place of Christ" or "the person through whom Christ appears vicariously"?
The problem isn't that a man or woman might be a vicar of Christ. In fact, Jesus says we will be his "vicars" in that we are His body, Jesus appears to other vicariously through us.
Isn't the real problem with the Catholic notion of the Vicar of Christ the exclusivity of the Pope's claim to be the sole vicar of Christ?
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Post by robin on Aug 12, 2009 13:17:24 GMT -8
Hi Josh, I think you may be splitting hairs. If, as the Catholics believe, the Pope does stand in place of Christ, is it not fair to say that the Pope has supplanted Christ's authority and leadership over the church? It is not as if Catholics simply believe that Jesus is acting through the Pope, rather they actually believe that he (the Pope) is God on earth or at a minimum carries the authority of God on earth. Those who believe the Catholic teaching on the subject would then naturally look to the Pope for their spiritual direction, rather than Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
Consider the following quotes.
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".
"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God. and the vicar of God." Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary
"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
I could go on and on. Catholic writings are replete with such statements. Whether these statements reflect the understanding of the majority of Catholics today, I cannot say. However from a historical perspective I think Steve's statement is not only fair, but also accurate.
Robin
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Post by Josh on Aug 12, 2009 22:32:22 GMT -8
This post has a parallel on Steve Gregg's forums (which I'm starting to regret... it's a bit of work) KaufmannPhillips responded with some info about the Catholic position on this topic:
The Catholic Church does not reserve the diction to the pope alone: "As Christ's vicar, each bishop has the pastoral care of the particular Church entrusted to him..." {Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 390}. We may also consider the following statement from John Paul II: The Pope is called the "Vicar of Christ." This title should be considered within the entire context of the Gospel. Before ascending into heaven, Jesus said to the apostles: "I am with you always, until the end of the age" (Mt 28:20). Though invisible, He is personally present in His Church. He is likewise present in each Christian, by virtue of baptism and the other sacraments. It was usual to say, as early as the era of the Fathers, "Christianus alter Christus" ("The Christian is another Christ"), meaning by this to empahasize the dignity of the baptized and his vocation, through Christ, to holiness.
Furthermore, Christ brings about a special presence in every priest, who, when celebrating the Eucharist or administering the sacraments, does so In Persona Christi.
From this perspective, the expression "Vicar of Christ" assumes its true meaning. More than dignity, it alludes to service. It emphasizes the duties of the Pope in the Church, his Petrine Ministry, carried out for the good of the Church and the faithful. Saint Gregory The Great understood this perfectly when, out of all the titles connected to the functions of the Bishop Of Rome, he preferred that of Servus servorum Dei (Servant of the Servants of God).
The Pope is not the only one who holds this title. With regard to the Church entrusted to him, each bishop is Vicarius Christi. The Pope is Vicar of Christ with regard to the Church Of Rome and, through that Church, of every Church in communion with it -- a communion in faith as well as an institutional and canonical communion. Thus, if with this title one wants to refer to the dignity of the Bishop Of Rome, one cannot consider it apart from the dignity of the entire college of bishops, with which it is tightly bound, as it is to the dignity of each bishop, each priest, and each of the baptized.
What supreme dignity those men and women have who are consecrated, who, as their vocation, have chosen to embrace the nuptial dimension of the Church -- Christ's bride! Christ, Redeemer Of The World and of humanity, is the Bridegroom Of The Church and of all those who belong to it: "The bridegroom is with them" (cf. Mt 9:15). One duty of the Pope is to profess this truth and to render it present to the Church In Rome as well as to the entire Church, to all humanity, and to the whole world.
(a) Catholics do not believe that the pope has supplanted Christ's place, but that he is Christ's trustworthy representative. (And Catholics do not believe that the pope is literally G-d on earth.) Basically, the role of the pope here is comparable to that of the bible in scripturalist traditions. Scripturalists do not see the bible as replacing G-d or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, but they do believe that it is a fully trustworthy agent of G-d. For them, there is no pitting the bible against G-d, and many would not think of the significance to their turning to the bible for spiritual guidance rather than to G-d and/or Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit directly. Likewise for Catholics with the pope (except for the large number of Catholics who do not buy into the official thought on this point).
(b) Catholic writings are not "replete" with such statements as you recount. And not nearly so replete as anti-Catholic writings are with citations of the same thimbleful of provocative quotes.
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Post by krhagan19 on Aug 22, 2009 21:58:11 GMT -8
It is worth noting that the current "Vicar" of Christ has been directley linked to hiding multiple cases of child molestation and furthermore he was a member of the Hitler youth as a child, an organization whose fundemental goal was a jew free Europe.
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