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Post by michelle on May 5, 2009 21:11:54 GMT -8
For you Losties, you know where this is coming from. There is a lot of discussion on Lost about if time travel existed, could events be changed. And if one event was changed, how would that impact the lives of everyone involved.
It got me to wondering how people feel about changing things from their pasts. Certainly we've all sinned and made mistakes or had bad things happen to us. Knowing what you know now and considering any lessons you may have learned, would you change anything from your past?
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Post by robin on May 6, 2009 7:55:20 GMT -8
I voted for several things. Without even thinking about it I came up with at least half a dozen decisions I had made in my life that I would, without a doubt like to go back and change. This in no way means that I begrudge my life today. I am very pleased with the way my life has turned out. God has blessed me well beyond what I deserve. However for many years I was a very selfish person, and that caused a lot of pain for people around me, and in some cases that pain cannot be reversed.
This subject fits in well with the topic that I will be teaching on come may 17th. The topic will be forgiveness. It would appear that repenting and seeking forgiveness is an admission that we wish that we had not done something that was harmful. Because we cannot go back and relive those moments, we through ourselves at the mercy of those that we hurt, and ask that they forgive us. This can be very humbling.
Robin
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Post by meghan on May 6, 2009 11:31:13 GMT -8
I chose a couple things. Mostly having to do with how I've dealt with relationships.
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Post by Alex on May 6, 2009 17:20:19 GMT -8
My theory is the problem with changing the past is that it puts your history into a chaotic system of resolution, in which you will loop between altering events and going back to fix them until you pop out in some undefined state. You could start out popping back to tell your high school sweetheart she'll be hit by a bus, and by the end of it you end up running a river ferry in Thailand.
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Post by Josh on May 6, 2009 20:07:32 GMT -8
And you complain that my threads are incomprehensible? Just kidding. So, you mean like in Back to the Future, right??? As to the topic at hand, the things I would most like to take back are times when I hurt someone else unfairly.
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Post by Alex on May 6, 2009 20:20:03 GMT -8
It's not that they're incomprehensible, just that you've yet to let go and set your mind adrift far enough to see their beauty.
Regarding the topic, the common phrase is the relevant one: "For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these, "It might have been'." John Greenleaf Whittier
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Post by robin on May 7, 2009 6:47:34 GMT -8
When I consider whether I would like to go back and change the past, I think not of things like avoiding car accidents, or wake boarding accidents, where one breaks their leg. Laine and I discussed this last night, and we both agreed that it would not be useful, or at least clearly beneficial to change those kind of events. Again, I think of things in which I seek forgiveness for. For example. When I was in school I ran with a popular crowd and I know that we made the life of some other students terrible. I imagine that some of the things we had done have caused them to look back at their childhood with bad memories. I would do anything to go back and treat those people with love and respect, and stand up for them rather than abuse them. Even if it meant that today I would be ferrying a boat in Thailand.
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Post by Josh on May 7, 2009 9:09:20 GMT -8
I was thinking about this topic some more last night and I had this thought: omnipotent God himself doesn't choose to "go back", even though I'm sure there are many things that He did not wish to happen that happen. Rather, he chooses to redeem the things that have been. I don't know what that means for us, who aren't perfect, but it does tell us that what is most important for us is always what we choose to do in the present.
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Post by michelle on May 7, 2009 11:04:40 GMT -8
I think I land somewhere between having no regrets and feeling like I had done things differently. I have made a number of bad choices in my life and some of those choices have hurt me and others and all of them have hurt God. I try not to reflect on them to the point that I feel shame because I know that is not what God wants. But I like to reflect them enough to learn how I can make better choies in the future. And while I wish that some things didn't turn out the way they did (e.g. my marrieage) I know that without those experiences, I would not know the Lord or myself the way that I do now. To me those experiences were invaluable to forming who I am today and because of that I wouldn't want them to be different.
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Post by robin on May 7, 2009 13:30:31 GMT -8
Don't you think it is possible or even likely that we would be better than we are today, had we not made regrettable decisions in the past? I don't despise myself, though I realize there are aspects of my personality, and habits that I don't see as helpful or beneficial in my daily life and relationships. I also recognize that much of the problem areas in my life are a result of making bad decisions in the past.
I also would not agree that God doesn't want us to feel shame. God gave us emotions like shame in order that we may recognize when we have done wrong. God wants to heal us, and bring us back from shame.
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Post by Josh on May 7, 2009 14:01:06 GMT -8
Well, I do agree with you on this but another part of me doesn't. I mean, for instance, this is like the question, was it better for mankind that Adam and Eve chose to sin in the garden. I don't know that I can answer that question, but if I was forced to, I think I would answer yes.
I think a distinction needs to be made here.
Shame is a helpful tool to point us to the truth. But once we have repented and accepted God's forgiveness, shame can then by used by the enemy to tempt us toward despair.
In other words, in some situations shame is beneficial. In others it can be harmful.
2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Would we all agree on that?
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Post by robin on May 8, 2009 7:05:14 GMT -8
Yes.
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Post by robin on May 8, 2009 7:26:45 GMT -8
This question seems to be the hole premise of CS Lewis' book Peralandra. It's one of my favorite CS Lewis books.
Also, what do you think of this passage from Romans? Romans 3:5-8 5 But if our injustice serves to confirm the justice of God, what should we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), "Let us do evil so that good may come"? Their condemnation is deserved!
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Post by michelle on May 10, 2009 16:32:05 GMT -8
Don't you think it is possible or even likely that we would be better than we are today, had we not made regrettable decisions in the past? Well, I can't speak for others, but I honestly don't feel I would be a better person today if I had not made some of the bad decisions I've made in the past. Some of my choices have led me to times of despair and those are the times that I found myself clinging to Jesus. To me those moments are invaluable and have helped me to establish an intimate relationship with him. I would be willing to go through it all again if it means having what I have with him because it is just that relationship that makes me a better person. And while I have hurt others in the past I know a few things for sure. 1) We will all fall short of the glory of God and choose sin over him at time, 2) at some point in our lives we will all hurt someone we love because we are human and 3) at some point in our lives we will all be hurt by someone we love because they are human. And while none of us want to hurt others (I hope), it's inevitable. In my experience of causing pain and being caused pain, I have better learned empathy and sensitivity and I think that makes me a better person. I guess I view my mistakes as learning and growing experiences and without them I wouldn't have the growth that I have had.
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Post by robin on May 11, 2009 7:53:49 GMT -8
Hi Michelle, So let me ask you this. In the cases where you have hurt someone, and have had to ask for their forgiveness, would you say to that person "even though I'm asking you to forgive me, if I had to do it all over again, I would do it the same way"? This just doesn't make any sense to me. When I seek forgiveness, it is because I realize that I have made a bad decision, and hurt someone. In that case, by seeking forgiveness I am telling that person that if I could do it again I would to it differently. If this were not the case, and I simply wanted forgiveness without changing my attitude about my regrettable actions. What I would be saying is that I want that person to stop feeling bad about my actions, because it was those actions that made me the way I am now, and that is worth it even if it hurt you. Does that sound like humility, or true repentance? It is the difference between saying "please forgive me for hurting you", and "I'm sorry you are upset with me for hurting you".
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Post by michelle on May 11, 2009 21:00:28 GMT -8
Hi Michelle, So let me ask you this. In the cases where you have hurt someone, and have had to ask for their forgiveness, would you say to that person "even though I'm asking you to forgive me, if I had to do it all over again, I would do it the same way"? No, I would say to them, "I am really sorry I hurt you. I know I will probably hurt you again because I am human. But now I know that doing this thing again will hurt you, so I will work really hard to not do it again because the last thing I want to do is hurt you." If this were not the case, and I simply wanted forgiveness without changing my attitude about my regrettable actions. What I would be saying is that I want that person to stop feeling bad about my actions, because it was those actions that made me the way I am now, and that is worth it even if it hurt you. Does that sound like humility, or true repentance? It is the difference between saying "please forgive me for hurting you", and "I'm sorry you are upset with me for hurting you". I am not sure what got interpreted as me saying I wouldn't change my attitude about my actions. It's not like I would say or even think, "well, sorry I hurt you, but I needed a growing experience so deal". That is absolutely NOT what I mean by my stance. But if anyone thinks that someone they love is never going to hurt them they are going to be sorely disappointed with life. I think the only thing we can do is try not to hurt people and learn from our mistakes when we do. I very much take it to heart if I know that I hurt someone. I feel totally devastated when I do. Of course I wish it didn't have to happen, but I am a realist and know that pain and hurt will happen and unfortunately I will certainly cause it for some people. I don't know what that sounds like to you, but I know that when I seek forgiveness I am truly repentant. I don't see mistakes as a sort of "ends justify the means" situation. But the means WILL happen and so I will make the best of the ends.
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Post by robin on May 12, 2009 7:18:27 GMT -8
Perhaps I'm alone here when I say that there are times when I have hurt someone, and I knew that my actions were going to hurt that person before I did it. It wasn't that I was unaware that my actions were hurtful, and came to that realization at a later point, though that has happened, but there are cases where I wanted revenge, or was compelled by other emotions, and let my evil nature get the better of me. This is what I'm talking about. If you or anyone else is fortunate enough not to have shared in my experiences, then I applaud you. However, I have lived long enough to know that this is extremely rare, if not non-existent. But if you have only hurt people unknowingly, and only later found out that you actions were hurtful, then I will have to partially agree with your stance. But is this really the case? Have you never done something out of spite or anger, and immediately after doing it realize that "that was very bad, and I wish I had not done that"? I think we have all had that experience.
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