Psychology and the Spiritual Realm

[Caleb]

Early man, ignorant or insightful?

Is it possible that our culture can get caught up in our technological and scientific advances and we sometimes forget that we never really discover new information, but rather we are merely explaining what already exists?

Perhaps the simple views of some of our ancestors are equal and actually complimentary to some of our more sophisticated science-oriented explanations. For example, when early man felt the rain coming down they didn’t have the science to describe what was taking place in the atmosphere, but some of them knew, correctly, that it was God who made the rain.*

Is it too outlandish to think that the spiritual realm can and does infiltrate the physical world? Is it possible that all of our labels in the DSM-IV, like schizophrenia, anxiety disorders, and bipolar, describe what is going on at the biological level, like how the brain chemicals work or malfunction like in hallucinations and delusions, but direct our attention away from an equal and complimentary truth, a spiritual explanation.

God is Spirit, and He makes the rain. But when we get lost in our explanation of how rain forms and falls it’s easy to forget this simple spiritual reality that is being described by science. Science doesn’t disprove that God makes rain; it just explains the rules that God has made and the way that He uses His own rules on this earth to make the rain.

It’s possible that “un-educated cultures” might have cut through some of our scientific smoke screen and done a better job of diagnosing someone who, takes off all their clothes, tries to fight everybody and kill themselves, and then sings at the top of their lungs, as someone who has been in a very real spiritual battle. Just because we have the means to describe what goes on with a person’s brain chemicals at the biological level, like in the case of someone with a mental disorder, does it disprove the possibility of demon possession, oppression or some other spiritual explanation?

Maybe things in the physical realm like medication might be the medium that God is using to treat people who are being demon oppressed. For example, what did someone with the symptoms of depression think was going on with themselves in Bible times for example? King David wrote about the agony he felt, he said that his soul was in Ghenna and that he felt that God had forsaken him. Could this have been spiritual related? Maybe there were evil forces influencing him. Some people have felt just like what David describes in the psalms and we called it a depressed cycle as part of bipolar.

I have heard from at least two reliable sources, a preacher on KPDQ and my Believer’s Commentary (which is pretty conservative) say that if King Saul were alive today he would be diagnosed with Bipolar type 1 with psychotic features. And in his case, the Bible tells us the reason why he was acting the way he was.

I Samuel 16:14. “Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.” I Samuel 16:23. “Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.” (Music therapy D?  )

Are we really smarter then our ancestors who explained batty and crazed behavior as a result of infiltration of the spirit world? Are we so sophisticated with our modern science that we our ignoring the more probable? (I feel like I’m preaching to the choir in this setting, but I’m interested in hearing from either side of the debate).

-Caleb

*In a related but separate issue then the one on hand, the majority of those who do not believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh as God seem to be quick to try to explain God and therefore responsibility to God away. The more we discover, in my opinion, the more we show how awesome God is because of what He has created. In their view, the more that is discovered shows that God did not do it because we have now figured it out. Let me attempted to demonstrate one potential example of this. Propagation is the process of how sound or vibration moves through a medium like air or water or wood etc. Before people had the ability to prove how this worked, it was probably seen by some as a phenomenon that was from God. But the discovery of the movement of molecules bumping up against each other creating sound has given some the explanation that they need to say, “See, it’s not God, it’s just propagation.”

[Josh]

brumbynw said:

Is it possible that all of our labels in the DSM-IV, like schizophrenia, anxiety disorders, and bipolar, describe what is going on at the biological level, like how the brain chemicals work or malfunction like in hallucinations and delusions, but direct our attention away from an equal and complimentary truth, a spiritual explanation.

I think it's quite possible. Of course, scientific discoveries about how things work do allow the materialist the ability to say about many things that God is unnecessary. But just because we have a materialist explanation for phenomenon doesn't rule out that there is an unseen (or mostly/ normally unseen) spiritual component to all events as well.

In fact, in cases involving "psychological" issues, such as those you're describing, I think an interplay of spiritual and material causes/ factors is evident.

Here are some hypotheses we could take for a test drive (and this is, of course, highly speculative at this point- just thinking out loud, here):

1) Egg before the Chicken:

Let's say that a person has one of the diagnoses you mentioned above (bipolar, scizophrenic, etc.). Clearly there is some physical component. If the physical component causes one to have delusional thoughts/ visions, then couldn't it be that spiritual forces then take advantage of the disorder and "feed" into the system specific delusions/ ideas?

It's instructive to me how frequently people with such disorders have explicitly religious delusions, most often with patently Gnostic themes (as we previously discussed). What I mean is that when one has a religious delusion, it never seems to be of an orthodox nature (true Christianity is too sane), it often has the following features (similar to elements of the age old heresy Gnosticism):

-a preoccupation with 'secret knowledge' or 'works righteousness' necessary for salvation or enlightenment
-an accompanying 'Savior' complex
-a denegration of the body and an elevation of the spiritual (or a dualism between the two where one feels when in the flesh evil deeds are permitted while the spirit remains pure somehow) and an accompanying inability to understand grace and sin in an orthodox manner

The prevalence of this phenomenon makes me suspicious that spritual forces take advantage of psychological disorders. This isn't really that strange, because as Christians we believe that the enemy takes advantage of all kinds of weaknesses- not just psychological ones. The enemy might turn one's experience of cancer into a temptation toward despair. He might use fatigue to incite us to lust or anger, etc...

2) Or, Chicken before the Egg:

Perhaps a root spiritual cause might produce a change in the physiology, where the influence of a spiritual forces affects brain chemistry, for example. Part of me leans away from this explanation, but then I think about how all things (including the rain) may ultimately have a direct spritual cause.

All that said, I want to try and poke holes in this/ ask further questions. So while I'm thinking, it would be great if others fired away too.

Caleb: great point about King Saul, btw. That's a great example of the interplay of the material and the spiritual- especially in that a physical/ material antidote was used for the affliction. Of course, can we even say that music is merely physical? Of course it can be described scientifically, but most of us feel intuitively that music is more than just physical vibrations.

[Josh]

1 John 4:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

1 Cor. 12:

3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

These verses come to mind as relevant.

[matthew]

Thanks Josh for the link to this post. This topic is deeply personal to me. For those of you who do not know my testimony, I was once (actually thrice) label schizophrenic, depressed, and paranoid with delusional thoughts. This was years ago now; 1st time was at 14, second at 19, last time (praise Him for healing!) at 22 (I'm 34 as I write this). All three times I was hospitalized and place in a clinic for around 2 weeks each time. I remember being placed on 5 meds at one time. Not exactly the most enjoyable time of my life.

But I know the Lord allows us to go through all kinds of trials and has His own purposes in and through them. There is alot more to my story, but for the sake of brevity, I'll say that He healed me, set me free from demonic oppression (and possession when I was 14/pre Christian), and miraculously freed me from the need to take psychiatric drugs (12 years now). I know what's it's like to feel helplessly oppressed, confused, fearful, depressed, and hopeless. It is hard for me to tackle the subject of this post without bias.

For years I've held the unpopular camp that "mental illness" is 90% spiritually caused, and 10% chemical / physical. I do believe that medication is needed at times to calm an out of control individual down, but have yet to be convinced that medication and secular "counseling" is the path to true healing for anyone caught in the downward spiral of mental disorders. You can stabilize those with outward signs that are unacceptable to the general public and take away their ability to express these symptoms, but the underlying cause of these symptoms is not simply chemical in nature (in my opinion).

"Professionals" and books on the subject refer to those with a chemical imbalance.
Have they a rule for what is chemically balanced? Is there an specimen "A" that exemplifies the perfect chemical balance in the brain? I'm of the opinion that what they are seeing in the makeup of the brain as abnormal is the effect of what spiritual oppression is causing.

I know that the faithful prayers of my friends enacted more healing in my life than all the phych.meds in the world pulsing through my veins. My guess is that there are as many demon oppressed/possessed souls in the world today (% wise) as there were in any other era. I hope I'm wrong here and that the church is healing many by the Spirit of God through faith in His name.

It is sad that so many in the church are duped by the world's philosophy concerning those that are oppressed and/or possessed. Labels abound and are sure to increase. You can label problems and those that have symptoms of these so called diseases, but true, inward healing comes through the power and mercy of the Triune God and that's it. I believe that psychiatry is big business and that because the "mental health" system is not a biblical one, it's corrupt and untrustworthy. Someone has to keep those poor pharmaceutical companies in business right? Phych meds are a big part of their bottom line.

I'm not seeing people walking in complete freedom because they took Prozac. The world wants to pop a pill and "make it go away", but that's not going to happen. What if the divine prescription was clearly spelled out from the beginning? What if sin is the cause of mental problems. I don't want to appear callous right now; I am not saying the solution is just to tell individuals to repent or that they are reaping the sins of their fathers. Many souls (including my own at one point) are not able to make the rational decisions that are congruent with scripture (even if they have already made a decision to follow Jesus). There is a place for the laying on of hands and healing/deliverance. And of coarse, a person has to want freedom to be set free or they could end up with "7 spirits worse than the first".

This is obviously a very complex issue. I feel over my head as I write this and am sure to invite some criticism. My opinion, seeing it from the inside (oppressed) and the outside (set free) remains the same. With few exceptions, mental disorders are not caused by chemical imbalance but are the signs of a soul not at peace with God, vulnerable and susceptible to demonic molestations and deceptions of all kinds.

Finally, I should note that although I was set free at 22; free from meds, free from delusional thoughts and depression, I had to make (and still make) choices that line up with how the Lord would have me think and act. Philippians 4:4-13 was and still is a passage that is the "drug of choice" for my mental health. One cannot practice what is in those verses and still suffer under mental bondage from my experience. I should add that we all have times when we are down (depressed), think and sometimes express in words irrational thoughts. This is normal; we are not perfect (yet). We must make choices daily that are good. We will reap what we sow. I thank Jesus that He had mercy on me and pulled me from that dark pit of despair and set me on solid ground.

I hope I did not stray too far from the topic discussed. I am open to questions about my testimony if it will help anyone have hope or sort through issues. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject and could be wrong on some things. But I do know in Whom I've trusted and am here to say He is so good, ready and willing to heal anyone who comes to Him humbly and honestly.

"Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed."
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding."

[Josh]

Thanks, Matt. Personal insight is very helpful. I'm glad you guys are bringing this stuff up because it's important, even if it is destined to be controversial. And I don't think you should worry too much about being controversial, as we are all committed to honest dialogue and open to the possibility that our thinking will be refined in the process, right?

"I believe that psychiatry is big business and that because the "mental health" system is not a biblical one, it's corrupt and untrustworthy."

I'm uneasy with this assessment. A big part of this depends on your definition of terms, though. First off, are you including the broader category of psychology here, or just the narrower category of psychiatry? And, either way, what exactly do you think is unbiblical about either one? The reason I ask is because I personally see some theological problems with elements of both fields and strengths in each field that I believe line up with biblical precepts.

In regard to Prozac, I will say that there was a period of time (about 9 months or so) where I took a low dose of it for manifestations of anxiety (eye-twitching, dizziness, etc.) and I found it to be very helpful in dealing with the problem without altering my "Joshness" in any significant way. I also found that 'prayer' alone (or being more obedient, etc..) didn't 'heal' me of the physical symptoms of that anxiety. I view it as not much different than taking a hot shower when stressed or drinking of glass of wine (in moderation). It's not intrinsically wrong to use substances for a phsyiological effect- in fact, there are Biblical examples. I mean if we took that logic too far we'd have to ban all types of medicine.

And some further more specific questions for both of you:

Setting aside the bipolar/ scizophrenia labels for a moment- what would you say about an Alzheimer's patient? That's clearly a case of a physical altering of the brain. Or someone with a tramautic brain injuries experiencing delusions, etc.. Is prayer going to be enough for those types of conditions (short of a miraculous physical healing)? I don't think so, because those conditions aren't the result of sin, but of neutral biological causes.

In my case, I'm not sure that I need to beat myself up too much for being a somewhat anxious person. Yes, I am responsible for casting my cares upon Christ to the best of my ability through His grace, but I'm not sure that I even physically have the ability to be symptom free just because I'm trying hard to be obedient (or even praying hard enough).

I've got more questions/comments, but that's probably good for now. I guess I feel there are truths on both sides here that are valid and need a hearing, but this dialogue is helpful to us all.

[Caleb]

I think you said it well Josh. Jesus doesn't heal everybody with cancer, MS, diabetes, or mental illness. I do think that the stress and guilt from sin brought my illness out, I don't think that I should assume that God has healed me and then go off my medication.

I know of two people who have bipolar and went off their medication because the went to a healing service and thought they had been healed, and ended up in the hospital.

I tapered off of one of my seven medications with the doctor's approval and on the first day of being off that medication (Geodon) I was hallucinating.

I had my elders pray over me and anoint me with oil like James 5 lays out and also because of how King Asa sought the advice of doctor's only and not the Lord and suffered (died?) for it.

So the question is this for me. When do I go off of my meds? When I feel better? I've been feeling pretty good for a while now. Is it worth the risk of hospitalization, medical bills, and being incapacitated for months, not to mention the turmoil on the family.

As far as Alzheimer's or brain injury, I think that it shows that the brain is an organ like the heart or kidney in the way that they are all capable of becoming sick. If you sin by eating junk food all the time then your heart could become sick. If you live a double life and lie to your family then your brain could become sick. Or it's possible that you could be relatively healthy and have a heart attack.

[marc p]

I'll chime in here… I'm a psychology major, and I've benefited from both modern medicine (drugs) and the field of psychology (counseling) in my own life. I struggled with depression from adolescence until about a year and half ago (I still have really down days from time to time, and I'm prone to anxiety if I don't keep myself in good health spiritually, mentally and physically). I was unable to perform at work I had gotten so bad at one point, so I took drugs (Effexor XR) for depression and debilitating anxiety. My doctor happens to be a wonderful Christian man, and though I do think he is quick to prescribe medicine for every little ill, he really took a lot of time to discuss possible causes of my depression and anxiety (mind you, he is an M.D. not a psychologist) and we talked about a variety of treatment options. I opted for drugs because I needed to be able to function. Though I had a lot of dysfunction (side effects) in the process, I was eventually able to get to a place where I could deal with some psychological issues (extreme shame, feelings of worthlessness, fear of rejection and failure, etc.). To me, it was worth it to make a pharmaceutical company a little richer (and pharmaceutical companies are shysters) in order to regain control of my life. I am convinced that at that point, no amount of faith, spirituality, Bible reading, laying on of hands, prayer or talking with loving friends and family would have helped me until I was able to think rationally again.

I'm not a huge fan of medication in general. If there's a natural substance that will substitute, I'm much more inclined to use it over a man-made chemical compound. I just think it's healthier to use organic substances (I feel this way about food, too). But I'm not dogmatic about this preference.

By the way, I’m not supporting the use of marijuana, though I think its medicinal properties are of some value, and are often written off by people who are quick to say no to drugs (as they should!). The problem is people's misuse and abuse marijuana (recreationally), and it is currently illegal, so it’s not an option as I’m concerned in this discussion.

I will say this before I go on: When I make superlative statements (i.e. beyond repair, nothing…, no amount of…), I am granting that God can and does perform miracles of healing, and I am not addressing the occasions in which He might do that. I do believe that God can and does heal people in this day and age. I also believe that sometimes, no matter how great our faith in Him, He does not heal people. It is possible that even if you have 10,000 people praying for your healing, if it's not a part of God's plan, that healing may never come this side of Heaven.

To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 12: 7-10, NIV)

I agree with Matt that many cases of mental illness are at least closely linked to, if not directly caused by demonic oppression or possession. The nice thing about my psychology classes (and I will concede that there is a lot of humanistic B.S. in psycho- and sociopsycho- theory) is that they are being taught from a Christian perspective, and all of my classroom discussions are grounded in Scripture and a biblical worldview. I think a huge cause of psychological disorders and mental illness is sin, and the resulting shame of secrecy. I love that Matt quoted “If the Son has set you free, you are really free.” I’m reminded of the verse in 1 Corinthians 4:4-5a, “My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.” (NIV)

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.

We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many. (2 Corinthians 1:3-11, NIV)

I believe that God allows us to suffer (sometimes from mental illness) for many possible reasons. Paul lists a couple in 2 Corinthians: That we may not become arrogant, that we may be an encouragement, that we might learn to rely on God, that many will give thanks on our behalf. I’m also reminded of Job, who suffered merely so that he could be reminded of his place and for an opportunity for God to show His glory. (I know there’s more to that book, but I don’t want to get into it here). I think, The Wounded Healer, by Henri Nouwen is a great read on how we can use our infirmities to help others find healing, and in so doing find our own.

I agree with Caleb that the brain is an organ. It can suffer physical ills just as any other organ can in the body. There are substances and injuries that can damage the brain beyond repair. There are also behaviors and repeated thought patterns that can really damage the mind (and callous the soul). Repeatedly lying to others and ourselves will desensitize us to the Truth, and eventually blur the lines of truth and fiction. Just take a few philosophy classes with an unguarded heart and mind and you’ll begin to deny absolutes! Arthur Miller illustrates the effects of lying to oneself and others in his classic, The Crucible. Romans 1:21-32 also makes this clear:

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” (NIV).

Correct me if I’m taking this out of context, but isn’t this clear in the way our society now thinks that homosexuality is a normal option, and sometimes not even a choice, but a genetic disposition? We’ve told ourselves (as a society) that it is not sinful so long that we now believe it isn’t.
I think that lying and pride are the root of all sins, and these two things will blind us and damage us if they go on unchecked and unrepented of for long periods of time.

By the way, I think pride is a twisted symptom of shame to cover up that we are not who we were created, or as Christians, re-created to be. I think we sense that we are made in the image of God, just a little lower than the angels, and we feel shame when we sense that we are not living up to our original design. We are aware that we are corrupt and depraved.

I do believe that Jesus is the ultimate Healer and that He will heal us… but I am wary to say that He will do it during our lifetime. Maybe I need greater faith, but we are in these fallen, earthen vessels, and as long as we have this flesh around our souls, aren’t we doomed to suffer illness?

I know I’ve only picked select points to respond to and I’ve brought up other issues, but these are my thoughts at this point in the conversation. I really hope it we keep this thread going for while and that more people will join in.

[Josh]

So the question is this for me. When do I go off of my meds? When I feel better? I've been feeling pretty good for a while now. Is it worth the risk of hospitalization, medical bills, and being incapacitated for months, not to mention the turmoil on the family.

Caleb,
My humble 2 cents worth. I'm fully aware that I haven't been in your shoes, but I have been thinking a lot lately about how a Christian should respond to physical ailments lately.

1 Tim. 5:23:

Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Instructive to me about this verse is

1) Paul didn't tell Timothy that he should pray for healing (presumably that had already been done)
2) Paul himself, who had healed others, could not heal his good friend Timothy
2) Paul didn't tell Timothy he didn't have enough faith or he needed to identify the sin he had committed
3) Paul advocated a 'medicine' as a way to help his friend continue on in the ministry

Anyway, Caleb, I mean, it seems you've done all the things a Chrsitian should do in good faith when an illness or other physical suffering strikes:

1) Believe that God can deliver you instantaneously or over time- ie, demonstrated faith
2) Acknowledged any sin or poor choices that have contributed to your situation
3) Utilized the tools at your disposal (medicine, therapy) to help yourself find a healthy place
4) Asked God what it is you might learn through this situation

So, I wouldn't be in a rush. I mean, sure, it would be preferable to be off medication, but that might not be practical (or maybe not for now). You might try again sometime, depending on how quickly and costly the results might be (is there a way to monitor it super-close to minimize the negative effects in they appear?)

Oh, and Marc, much agreed about the benefit in continuing this discussion in humility, etc.. And thanks for your perspectives, which I find to resonate a lot with my thinking about suffering just now.

More voices would be great, although, I guess jumping in now requires a bit of reading.