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Post by robin on Mar 11, 2008 10:02:09 GMT -8
On another thread related to evolution and the age of the earth Douglas wrote the following.
I'm curious how others understand Gods relation to time. First off I would like to say that I fully accept that God is eternal with no beginning and no end, however when God created the universe, part of that creation was the operation of free will beings in time. So if God does operates outside of time, how does he do so in relation to his own creation that works in time. For example I am not a Calvinist, so I firmly believe that my future decisions are yet to be made. Now even if God does work outside of time, how would that enable him to know my future choice since they are yet to be made? And if God in some capacity is able to see all time from beginning to end because he is outside of time and he has already seen my future choices, just how free am I? Would my actions not be limited to Gods Knowledge? Now I have not adopted a view of open Theism, but before I could endorse a view that says that God existing outside of time is able to know things yet to come, I would like a clearer understanding of how that would work, and how can we reconcile it with our free will.
Some verses to keep in mind would be:
Jeremiah 7:31 "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind,"
Genesis 22:12 "And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me,"
Judges 2:21-22 "I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, 22in order to test Israel by them, whether they will keep the way of the Lord to walk in it as their fathers did, or not,"
Robin
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Post by Josh on Mar 21, 2008 16:48:40 GMT -8
I think, indeed, it would be a good idea to put on the table a good smattering of verses that are commonly held to support both free-will and predestination (as well as God's apparent foreknowledge and/ or lack of future or present knowlegde).
Your Jeremiah verse seems a bit vague. I can see interpreting "come into my mind" a variety of ways.
The other two, having to do with God testing something, are perplexing texts if we assume, as common sense might lead us to, that someone tests something to find out knowledge they don't currently have. These texts and others are good evidence for some limitation on God's part. I'm not fond of interpretations that see these passages as bluffing or 'playing along' on God's part. However, I'm not absolutely sure that there might not be reasons to test someone or something even when the truth of the quality being tested is already known. More on that later perhaps.
I'll be back with some more verses I think we should throw into the mix, but here's one I definitely think deserves to be considered, landing squarely as potential evidence on the other side of the argument IMO:
Psalm 139:1-16
1 O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. 2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in—behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
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Post by Douglas on Mar 21, 2008 19:46:38 GMT -8
Hi Robin, I wrestled a lot with open theism several years ago when i was in college. I want to make sure that i present it correctly so i will have to wait to respond fully until i can get at by books. They are all at the office at work which is handy when i am at work but extremely inconvenient when i am at home. I hate to make a statement about a position, especially one i dont hold to, without having their own materials in front of me. I will say for starters though that one of the aspects that i love about Open Theism is that is sharply challenged the static perfect unchanging God that is so often seen in more extreme forms of Calvinism. When i read scripture i see a God who is deeply involved with his creation. Emotionally, physically, in time and space. I think this what first attracted me to Open Theism. I would love to say more but i will try and exercise restraint and wait. I will pull some quotes that we can look at. Blessings, Douglas
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Post by sonlyte on Mar 22, 2008 9:23:47 GMT -8
Well douglas, I am behind you a little ways, I am wrestling with the idea a little more now. Good thoughts Robin! I stopped praying for a long time because I didn't understand really who and why i was praying. I have started praying more specifically to God following a pattern that I see without even being able to understand why. I am pretty interested in this subject.
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Post by Douglas on Mar 22, 2008 13:09:39 GMT -8
This actually has been the area in my life that has been most affected by this whole thing and a reason why it is so important to sort it out. In the extreme predestination model much of the power of prayer is lost. I know that many might have problems with this statement but i am speaking more about actual results than about the theory that underlies them. If all things are set in place and man is a cog in the system, why pray? If all was decided at the beginning what possible impact could my prayer in the moment make the eternal mind of God? This is a serious problem and in my mind a clear sign that a good answer is needed.
I attended a RC Sproul conference years ago, not to say anything against RC, he has been instrumental in my walk, yet i sharply disagree with him on prayer. It happened like this, at the end of the conference there was an open question and answer period. The questioned was asked. if God knows everything and has foreordained all that comes to pass, why pray. I must confess that i have wrestled with the question myself many times. The answer that was given could not have dissatisfied me more. Basically, RC's answer was that prayer changes us not God; we grow when we pray. This may be true but if this is all that is happening in prayer i will never pray again. The reason that people pray is to see change, to see God act, to change what we see happening. If this is impossible then prayer in its foremost purpose is useless and empty.
I am reminded of the Prayer of the Old testament that of of Abraham asking again and again to spare Sodom and Gomorrah. I am reminded of the prayers of Elijah who by his prayer stopped the rains of heaven for three years. Add to that the intersession of Moses on Sinai before God on behalf of Israel where God actually desired to wipe out the people of promise and start over with Moses. By his prayer Israel was save and the express desire of God was changed. These do not fit at all with the traditional predestination model. The responses that i have read to these passages usually side step the issue. They assume that for God to change would mean the he was imperfect and therefore what we see must not be in reality what was taking place. It seems abundantly clear that God is active in time and space on a level that i cannot even fathom. I am thinking here also of your comments on the other page about Forces: Natural or Supernatural. There is clearly more going on here than we understand.
Douglas
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Post by robin on Mar 24, 2008 7:28:01 GMT -8
Hi Josh,
You quoted the Psalm 139:
I think what David is saying here is that God knows him intimately, and so intimately at to be able to "discern" all of his ways. I think of it like this. I know my wife pretty well, and at times, during conversations with other people, I know exactly what she is thinking, and at time how she will respond. Now God being all knowing, knows me better than I know my self, so it would be know surprise to me to know that "Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.". I don't think we can make the texts say more than it does. If I know what I'm going to say, I'm sure God is well aware of it, but to take that and say that God at this moment knows every word I will ever say is all together different. What do you think?
Sonlyte & Douglas, I agree with you in regards to prayer. It is only recently when I have started to consider this topic more in-depth that I have seen my prayer life improve. For a long time it felt like nothing more than a exercise in futility. If God knows the future than there is nothing I can do to change it, as a matter of fact if God knows the future there is nothing I can do to change my future self, as RC Sproul thought.
By the way, I have a number of other verses that I think could add to the conversation. Perhaps I will try and post some of them before I leave for vacation.
God bless, Robin
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Post by robin on Mar 24, 2008 15:38:55 GMT -8
Hi Josh,
Sorry, I didn't address this in my last response. Perhaps we read this differently. I don't see David saying that every day of his life was ordained from the beginning, but rather there were certain day that were ordained. Lets consider the implications of what I think you are seeing here. Would you say that God ordained David to commit adultery with Bathsheba, or murder her husband? I doubt it. But there were days that were ordained for David, and God intended to bring them about even before David's birth. Perhaps those days would include what is recorded in Chapter 16 of Samuel 1 where David was anointed King, and later in the same Chapter where he served King Saul. David's defeat of Goliath, and the multiple times in which Davids Life was under threat and he manages to escape may be in view here. How about Davids destruction of the Amalakites in Chapter 30. However I think what the underlying message is Gods determination to deliver the Messiah thought David's line of descendent's. I may be way off base here. What do you think?
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Post by Josh on Mar 28, 2008 19:23:01 GMT -8
Robin, Just a question here. Do open theists see God as having existed before (or more appropriately, outside) of time. Or, flip it around, do they see time itself as something that was created? From what I gather from your first post, they would. Is that correct?
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Post by sonlyte on Apr 6, 2008 18:10:52 GMT -8
In reference to time, consider this thought:
Time isn't really a "thing" to be created. It is to be understood as the complex relationship of movement in space. If all paused and no movement was made, the sun stopped burning because of the ceasing of all atomic power and light were to freeze, all would be instantly "dark" essentially. Human thought impulses would be frozen and thus perception would meaningless. If all this were to happen but "time" were to continue, would it be significant? If all were to resume an "hour" later, and we didn't even know it, we wouldn't even be aware of the passage of time.
To make it more realistic, if we were to travel outside of the bounds of the known universe and if it were possible to go beyond any reference point like stars and galaxies, there would be nothing to measure time by, and I have a feeling that it would be defined very differently there. Human body functions force us to perceive time in a certain way because we must continue breathing, (short period of time) eating and sleeping (longer period of time). I believe that without these reference points time is not meaningful. Thus the creation of space and movement creates the idea of time. God however, is not limited by these functions, and "before" there was time could be simply described as before there was a reference point.
I have a lot more thoughts connected to this one, but this isn't really my lecture hall.
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Post by sonlyte on Apr 6, 2008 18:20:22 GMT -8
If you don't understand the relevance of the above post to the discussion, I apologize. I did a poor job explaining myself, but I can't think of how to explain better without writing 10 times more. Peace
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Post by robin on Apr 7, 2008 8:43:06 GMT -8
Robin, Just a question here. Do open theists see God as having existed before (or more appropriately, outside) of time. Or, flip it around, do they see time itself as something that was created? From what I gather from your first post, they would. Is that correct? Hi Josh, I must admit, I am fairly uninformed on the standard beliefs of open theists on this specific question. In my opinion open theism attempts to answer the question of whether God is limited by time in relation to our universe, not His mode of existence outside of our universe or before the creation of it. I wish I could give a better answer. Robin
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Post by Josh on Apr 7, 2008 9:02:01 GMT -8
Sonlyte:
Feel free and make this your "lecture hall" as much as you want. We all benefit from your thoughts.
I wholeheartedly concur with your thoughts on time. It's the view that I believe science and reason dictates.
And, Robin, your remark on it's impact (or non-impact) on open-theism is helpful too.
If open theism posits that God cannot be outside of time, then I have a strong disagreement, seeing as how God created time, and therefor, can exist without it.
However, if they are saying that God purposefully chooses to limit his involvement with the physical universe within the boundaries of time, then that's another thing. I still don't know that I'd agree with that, but it's a lot more reasonable than to suppose that God cannot be outside of time.
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Post by sonlyte on Apr 7, 2008 17:12:55 GMT -8
One problem I have with saying that God is "outside" or "inside" of time, is that these are spatial descriptions of a reality which is not spatial. If time isn't a thing to be created, then to describe God as limited by it may be a questionable statement. What if there is no such thing as "outside" of time? What if time is actually boundless. To say that there was a beginning is a logical statement. To say "before the beginning" is an illogical statement because the term "before" requires a framework of time. This I think is why we adopt spatial descriptions for time, so that we can exceed its bounds.
One interesting point that may factor into the interaction of God and man with respect to time is that without being "bounded" by time, the relationship we have with God would be extremely confusing, not as he intended. "God will you please give me more food yesterday, because I was hungry." It seems that hoping in the future, and learning from the past may be divine characteristics much like purity and wisdom. Maybe reality is not what we perceive but it must appear that way for God to really express himself through his creation...I cannot believe how my thoughts just got going. I must have hit the right subject for the evening.
And now...to dinner. Have a good evening.
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Post by Josh on Apr 7, 2008 17:31:04 GMT -8
2 Timothy 1:8-10
8So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Titus 1:1-3
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior...
"Before the beginning" may be an illogical statement, but Scripture itself uses it. It uses imperfect language/ spatial descriptions because there is no other way from a 4 dimensional perspective to describe what Paul's trying to say- which is, in effect, time was created and God existed and had a plan before there was time.
As to whether God created time, well, I guess I view it like this: time is a variable dependent on matter, space, and energy, right? So God 'created" time indirectly by creating the material universe.
What this all boils down to for me, in regard to Open Theism, is that God is not constrained by time unless He chooses to be. There is nothing to say that He must be constrained by time.
Can you explain "so that we can exceed its bounds" a bit more?
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Post by sonlyte on Apr 7, 2008 18:18:09 GMT -8
about spatial descriptions: time can only be described in a tempural way by us as before and after. But if something or someone is somewhere in between before and after and yet not necessarily now, he or it must be something else. What shall come to our aid? Spatial descriptions! Now we are not "within" time, and therefore not bound to time while describing our relationship with it.
The three words in greek that you quote from that phrase pro kronon aionion (I have no idea how to transliterate) do not seem to add up to the phrase "Before the beginning of time". I could use some help in understanding that. I would still hold that I believe this may be a translation taking into account modern ideas on the nature of time.
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Post by Josh on Apr 7, 2008 19:34:26 GMT -8
I'm no student of Greek, but it looks like it might be something like "before time eternal", but, to be sure, other translations differ:
"Before the world began, eternal ages ago, from all eternity, before time began" are a good respresentative sample.
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Post by Douglas on Apr 23, 2008 15:10:09 GMT -8
Funny enough this whole discussion of time is one of the sticky points that i have both is Calvinism and Open theism. It seems to me that is both camps there is an attempt to stick a western concept of time on to scripture. In the Calvinism camp, there are many who place God so far beyond time and his creation that he becomes this unfeeling uninvolved unmoved mover, which i agree with to a point. Yet i cannot tell you how many people that i personally know that have their pray life utterly destroyed by believing that all things are totally predetermined to the point that prayer really have no effect on God or the outcome of events. I disagree with this to strongly i cannot tell you.
Yet on the open theism side i have seen them commit the same error, tying God so tightly into time that he becomes a demigod hoping desperately that his plan for salvation actually works. The divine crap shoot i have heard it called. In my mind this is still a enforcement of western thinking on the bible only in this case in the opposite direction. I dont know which one is worse.
I know that i am probably stepping on toes here and i apologize ahead of time. The best explanation that i have heard actually came from Josh a long while back. I believe that there is a tension between these to extremes and that the perfect combination is a paradox that i believe lies in the realm of faith rather than reason. But that is my opinion.
I will have to do some research into current thought about time. I know that there were some theories related to Einstein's relativity work but i dont know a whole lot about it.
Douglas
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